[00:00:05] Speaker A: I'm Jenny Brockbank.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: And I'm Katie Willis. We've experienced destructive circumstances while striving to keep our covenants, which have made us desperate for a savior.
[00:00:21] Speaker A: We found Christ in so many unexpected places, and we continue to search for him.
Come sit with us.
Welcome to healing in Christ Light. I'm Jenny Brockbank, and I'm here with the wonderful sunshine in human form, Katie Willis. Welcome, Katie. Grateful.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: Hi. Thank you joining me.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: So nice to have a co host to bounce these things around and I just really appreciate you a great deal.
Before we get started, I wanted to mention that Katie has a wonderful free course. It's free on her website. For supporters of those experiencing betrayal trauma, which includes family, friends, clergy, therapists, et cetera, go to Gracefieldpathways freshlearn.com and scroll down until you see one that is called Spiritual Support Team Training for Betrayal Trauma. This course is also validating for those who are going through betrayal trauma, which likely includes many of our audience members. And Katie, I think you're making a new one, is that right? A new course?
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Yes. This will be a good kick in the pants to get it done. Right now, with the advanced coaching training that I'm going through, I'm creating one for relationship trauma. Betrayal trauma is a form of relationship trauma, but there are other factors that can create relationship trauma. So it'll follow a similar format for family member, friends, clergy, church leader to learn a little bit about being on the spiritual support team. For somebody going through relationship trauma, that's amazing.
[00:02:14] Speaker A: I look forward to seeing it. From what I saw of the other course, I was like blown away because you have so many good analogies for what it's like, because it's such a hard topic to discuss.
It really is. And for those who maybe haven't experienced trauma, to grasp what that's like is just tricky. So I appreciated a lot what I saw.
Also, I wanted to mention that I have a book coming out, hooray. I can't believe it.
But it's called healing in Christ's light from patterns of sexual betrayal as a covenant keeping daughter of God. And you can go to my website to find
[email protected] or Healing. You can look for healing in Christ light on Amazon.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: And it worked. That's how I ordered my copy. Jenny, you ordered on Amazon? Of course, I ordered two so on Amazon. I just searched for that and it came up for so well.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you, Katie. Gosh, I love me. I just really appreciate and love you.
And these resources, while they're primarily for sexual betrayal, this podcast is a broader expansion of that. And so our audience is primarily those who have experienced abuse, addiction, adultery, and or abandonment. And sometimes people have suffered multiple things of those because when one person participates, for instance, in addiction, they might also present with abuse or things. So we welcome everyone and those who want to understand what that is like as well and how to best help. So we appreciate very much that we have a broader audience here.
Katie, I'm really thrilled that we decided to address the difference between victim mentality and the fact that there's an actual victim. So to separate the two, I know that you've talked about how in your coaching that you've learned to call a victim a target instead, and I kind of wanted to pick your brain a bit and see why that might be helpful for some. And it's okay if people want to still use victim, but it might be validating to hear the word target as well. So what do you think about that?
[00:04:37] Speaker B: Yeah, if you don't mind, maybe let's define it a little and then maybe we can discuss briefly why that would be important to differentiate and define from the perspective of somebody who is the target and then maybe from the perspective of someone who is trying to support the target.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: Great.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: I just realized we never told listeners my story, but part of my story includes betrial trauma. If you haven't found me other places before this podcast and when I was going through group and private therapy, I remember when our therapist used the word victim and it just made me cringe. I hated it because at that point I was trying so hard to make changes and accept what had happened and that this was part of my story but not wallow in it. When she used the word victim, I cringed. And I feel like we can have certain connotations about these words that maybe listeners are like, yeah, that word victim creates a mental picture of somebody who's just sitting around and enjoying the fact that they've been through hard things and that they're going through an experience where they've been shoved down and enjoying that.
Yeah, go ahead.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: I kind of wonder too if some people I find for me when I get into victim mentality, right. Sometimes I cannot get out of it. It's like I'm not necessarily enjoying it, but I am stuck and don't see a way out. I don't see my options.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: Right. And it makes so much sense because for me, having lived through it and then also having worked with students and clients through it, it's a trauma response when we get caught in that victim, sometimes when we're caught in that victimhood. So you're right. I mentioned to you the training that I'm going through. They've encouraged us to use the word target rather than victim. And for me, I'm like that creates a different mental picture and also rather than victim to use the word victimized as well, or victimhood, we've got several options. So for me, when I'm talking about being a victim, that's me trapped in that victimhood, whether I'm enjoying it and wallowing for fun or I'm stuck as a trauma response.
Hopefully we'll get to this. But act versus being acted upon. I'm being acted upon. I'm not seeing the ways that I can be empowered. I'm not seeing the things that are within my stewardship and reach and capacity to change, even though I might be limited in my circumstances.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: Well, can we go there really quick to the acted upon scriptures, if that's okay?
[00:07:55] Speaker B: Oh, Jenny, you're leading. Go.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Because Nephi, I love that he addresses this and he addresses it twice being acted upon, that we can act instead of being acted upon. So I thought I would read those two scriptures because this was important to Nephi for some reason, we feel righteous empowerment to make different choices.
And so the first is second, nephi 214, it says, for there is a God and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are both things to act and things to be acted upon. And then two, nephi 226 says, and because that they are redeemed from the fall, they have become free forever, knowing good from evil to act for themselves and not to be acted upon. And so there's a little more to those scriptures, but that's the basic of it. And that I think we learned from Nephi, like you pointed out recently, was that Nephi did choose to at one point be separated from his know, he did choose it's like his father had died. He was kind of holding the family together and then at some point he was like, and now it's not safe and we have to be separated from our brothers.
And Gosh, what a hard decision that must have been. But also righteous empowerment because they had greater safety, right?
[00:09:33] Speaker B: And he had the power to act by making that.
Jenny, I think the other half is we need to hold space for ourselves when it's us or hold space for others, that individuals can be victimized through other people's choices, their use of agency that impacts, especially when we're targets of patterns of destructive behavior. There needs to be space to also acknowledge that other side of the coin, it's both.
We don't want to sit in victimhood, we want to be empowered. We want to act rather than being acted upon. And when we have been victimized, when we are the target, especially ongoing destructive patterns, there's something there that's damaging.
It does impact us.
And so I think there's danger if we swing to one or the other and don't acknowledge the both.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: Right. So swinging too far one way would probably be like you had brought up toxic positivity previously in a conversation we had. Sorry, but toxic positivity or spiritual know, would you like to address that for us and kind of explain what that might look like?
[00:11:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And Jenny, if I'm remembering right, once you said something to me that I'm like, oh, she nailed it. But you talked about how we can turn to patterns of behavior that can be addictive. We can do the same thing with our Bible or our Book of Mormon in hand. We can use our spirituality to just bypass our humanity rather than here's a thought I recently got to share with people who aren't of my faith, most of them not even Christian. That one definition of temple.
It's a place where heaven and earth meet me. I feel like the Ascension and the personal journey that I'm on and others around me are on as well. To become like our heavenly parents, it requires my humanity, it requires me to have a physical body. It requires me to live in this fallen world where we can hurt each other and where we do get sick and where we're experiencing all of these hardships and difficult parts of this part of our eternal journey while we're here in mortality. And so we can use it as an unhealthy coping strategy, whether we ourselves are the target. And we're just trying to jump to trying to act. I'm all better now without acknowledging yeah. Like, I have Jesus and he makes everything all better and I can have hope because of Him and I can have joy. Yeah, all of that's true. And there's an and right now I hurt.
Right now I'm not sure what my future will look like.
I've been devastated. Like, it's it's both. We don't want to, again, swing to the other end and be in despair, but we really can't shortcut the work that needs to be done. I've really appreciated in my training right now. They've taught us that part of healing from relationship trauma is the target, telling their story.
As an advanced coach, they're cautioning us that at certain points in the client's journey, it may not be helpful for them to rehash the same parts of their story that they've already know. Maybe similar to what you were saying at the beginning, Jenny, that we don't want to encourage people to be stuck in their victimhood.
If the target does not have safe spaces to tell their story, they cannot heal. So sometimes the spiritual bypassing comes from the support people around the target. Because sometimes I don't know about you, Jenny, and I'm laughing like, you've heard my ugly, ugly parts of my story as we've been friends for years, and Marco Polo and text and audio messages. And not everybody can hold it to the depths of what I feel like we've been able to hold for each other. Jenny but sometimes it can be intense and messy. And sometimes we're at a point in telling our story that we're angry now, or we're at a point in our story where there's a lot of grief. And sometimes, as a support person, we might want to rush to what we think is the answer.
I'm like telling all these half sentences, but here's what just popped in my head. Think about one of the covenants that we make at baptism. I don't feel like we talk as much about because it's not in the sacrament prayer, but in Mosaic, Chapter 18.
As Alma was baptizing the people, he taught them that they are to mourn with those who mourn and comfort those who stand in need of comfort. And I think sometimes we want to rush to that comfort part because it's more comfortable for us than it is to sit in dark places with people and mourn with them while they need to mourn. But again, if we don't find those spaces, if we're the target, and if we don't provide those spaces for the target, they won't be able to heal.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: Definitely.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Spiritual bypass is not helpful because it does not lead to true healing. Again, it's that place where heaven and earth meets. We have to hit the humanity in order to have that ascension up and out.
Yeah. What thoughts do you have?
[00:16:01] Speaker A: Well, as you're talking, I'm just sitting here thinking, one, how beautiful that was, and two, how well said that was. And I just remember, for me, having been victimized and it is tricky because so often what we're going through, it's not like we can express play by play what happened, especially if it's something like emotional abuse. Totally. Because it's like, secretive. It's hard to figure out, but any kind of abuse that people go through, I feel like we often lack language for. And one of the critical things that I have found is that I really need language to explain what happened for whatever situation I've got going. And then it helps with my healing because it's like if I can't even describe it, maybe it was too traumatic and maybe there's a freeze or something. If I can't describe it, I'm going to have a hard time healing from it.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: And so I love what you're talking about with safe spaces. I feel like that is one of the critical things that I need in order to heal, is to be able to say what happened and explain it and have somebody understand that somewhat and to make sure if they're understanding, then I explained it well, if that makes sense.
[00:17:21] Speaker B: Oh, hey, and can I hit on that? And what do we do if we have explained it well and they still don't understand?
What is that like when you have to hold yourself and go to God for confirmation and validation?
[00:17:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I will say go ahead. Yeah, sorry. It's so painful. Truly, when I've done all I can and tried to explain and it's shoved aside or they didn't understand, or it looks like maybe I'm overreacting to something, when really it's something that needs to be held and then I can heal from it, that makes sense.
So for me, I feel like it's just a critical piece. So before we move on to figuring out how are we righteously empowered, I think that is part of it. And some of my most beautiful healing and validation have come from God. So I love that you brought that up as well. Because I have gone to him even recently and said, do you see this? Do you see how bad this is? Do you see how much this hurts?
And to have him respond with gentleness and to hold me in a way and to say, I see I love you, I know that this is hard, I'm here with you. And he's not sitting there trying to fix it. He is mourning with me, right. And there are times when I think he's like, it's time to move on.
But until I have received enough healing, he is such a good God to just sit with me and to mourn with me in that and to help me then look at ways that I can become righteously empowered.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Can I add a thought to that, Jenny?
[00:19:14] Speaker A: Please.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: For trauma survivors, that can be really challenging when we have been in relationships and in environments where one of our big takeaways is we don't feel like we can trust ourselves or our ability to be connected with God and to hear answers. So I just want to offer validation if there's any listeners that are like, jenny, what you just described is meltworthy and I don't relate to that. And so maybe just coming back around again to why it is so critical that we can hold safe space for targets who have been victimized, because it is not always easy for them to trust that they have that direct relationship to be validated by God. So it can be kind of a mess. It really can be when we are trying to heal and we are at the point where we're trying to tell our story, if we don't feel like we have safe people around us and we're not confident in our ability to connect. But that doesn't mean again, that we have to stay in that victimhood and it doesn't mean that we will be hurting that deep or have that level of confusion forever. We can move forward. So did you have more you wanted to say or are you ready to share your really empowering thoughts, your list of three? I can't think of what you called it.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: I think actually that was really well said and I agree. There is so much spiritual trauma that goes on and I really appreciate you bringing that up, actually, because sometimes I'm just going to own that I do have spiritual trauma. It is different than some people's and so it's okay if people show up and something doesn't resonate. So just to empower people to maybe take what you like and leave, the rest is okay. There's no judgment because we're trying to create a safe space. So we're doing our best with that.
A few ways that we can embrace righteous empowerment and one is to use our voices in kind and truthful ways. And I just want to bring up this scenario that happened with Katie, actually, I didn't warn you beforehand.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: I trust you.
[00:21:44] Speaker A: So Katie and I were in the same stake and we no longer live in the same city or anything right now, but we were in the same stake at one point. And I remember I had been to speak with my bishop because I had made a discovery about sexual acting out behavior and I was in so much trauma. And I remember going to my bishop and saying, bishop, this is what's happened, and thinking he is going to understand and he's going to see, he's going to see how much pain I'm in and he's going to get it. And this is not a criticism of my bishop because I feel like he did the best he knew how, honestly, he really did.
But I remember my bishop sitting back and looking at me like I was nuts. I mean, he just did. I know.
And I was in major trauma. It was before I understood what betrayal trauma was. And there was probably some persecutor in what I was saying. I'm guessing there was something like that. And he just sat back and just looked at me like I had lost it or something.
And fast forward, Katie goes and she speaks with our state president. And he told me this at the time because then I went to speak with the state president. He said, well, I've got this really wonderful couple who I feel like could teach the bishops and could help in this way. And he said, I think I'm going to call her to something like that. And he explained to me who Katie Willis was and I was familiar with you, we had taken a class together, but other than know, I didn't know you that and but I remember telling him I adore Katie. I said that would be so neat. And so Katie, then you went and he came in the state president and he gave you some real, I would say, empowerment. Does that sound?
Yeah, he backed you up and he told those know that it was an honor to have you there and to please listen. And the fascinating thing, so you had trained my bishop specifically and here he know, not understanding what's going on with me, not seeing it. But after being trained by Katie, there was a massive difference in how he showed up and what he understood and how he could relate. And so I just want to say in order to have done that, obviously you didn't show up in trauma like I had and lots of grace and.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: I was farther from fresh trauma. So anyway, sorry to speak over you, but no, I wasn't fresh from a new disclosure, right, but I could still touch that place inside myself who was a trauma survivor, who had been victimized and tried to put that into words and to try to make that as logical as possible. But I mean, today you could train a bishop too, jenny but it was just I think that I was a little bit farther.
[00:25:05] Speaker A: I well, that's for sure.
That's for sure. But I remember just recognizing the difference in how my bishop responded to me versus how he responded to Katie, to you. And so I just wanted to say that one. If we're showing up in trauma and we don't even know what it is, there's so much grace for that. And so I am an advocate I think you are, too, for training bishops so that they understand better what they're looking at, so that we have a better ally in them. And that's not a criticism of what they're doing. It's just awareness would really help.
[00:25:45] Speaker B: Yeah, because it's a lot to put on a bishop and it's a lot to put on a trauma survivor, to not totally be in trauma when they're in trauma.
So I think if we could distribute the weight a little bit, that if we can help trauma survivors understand and have that language like you talked about earlier, and awareness and to be able to hold themselves with compassion no matter where they are in their healing journey. And the more not only bishops and church leaders, but also friends and family members who can become aware and could recognize what it looks like when a person is in trauma and could believe that people really can be victimized and to hold that space. Maybe between the two, it might be a less traumatizing experience to get the help and support that we need in our journey, I totally spoke over you. I'm like getting all passionate listening.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: No, it's so good. It's so good. But I would love it. What kinds of key I think the thing that you do really well with priesthood leaders, and I remember sitting back and kind of watching in awe at some of the things that you did because really, I just remember my own bishop listening intently to what you told him versus he wasn't listening to me, bless his heart. And I'm just wondering, how did you create that kind of safety? Can you maybe speak to that? How did you use your voice in kind but truthful ways so that you could create that kind of safety with the bishops?
[00:27:30] Speaker B: Well, first off, I need to acknowledge it wasn't all me. I really do believe there was something in that. Our state president was open to that and was encouraging that. And for some people, unfortunately, even if somebody shows up and says all of the right things and is very clear and very calm, they might be uncomfortable again to acknowledge and might be more comfortable with that spiritual bypassing and toxic positivity. They may not have the emotional maturity required to sit in the discomfort of something like this. So I feel like having a state president who was like, hey, this is what we're doing, helped a lot.
I think for me we hit on. It was not something I could have done fresh from Discovery Day. I really needed to take my time to get to a point where I had done enough of my healing. I hope that we'll deep dive more as we've bounced future episodes off of each other. I think there's too much to just say in like a 32nd answer, but I feel like for me, part of it is maybe innate a little bit to spiritual gifts, maybe that I have or tendency that I have.
But I do believe there are parts of what I've done in those types of settings that we can pass on to people. So basically, just being aware of myself and where my limits are and as I'm keeping an eye on my own trauma to make sure that I'm not going too deep or answering questions in a way that it's triggering, or whatever. I'm keeping an eye there, but I'm also keeping an eye on the other person or the people in the group. To be able to just observe. Like, I'm watching their facial expressions and I'm watching kind of their countenances and doing my best, if at all possible, to monitor for signs of like are they getting overwhelmed? Do we need to maybe pause and maybe I say it seems like maybe we've got some questions on this. Is that right? And just holding that space where I'm not treating people inferior or stupid for not knowing these things.
But again, knowing that this is a very sensitive topic and it's usually pretty nuanced and pretty complicated and pretty tailored to the individual. So it can be a lot to take in, in any setting.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: Got you.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: So I don't know if those thoughts are helpful, but we'll definitely talk more in future episodes because there's a lot to unpackage.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: I think it is helpful. I think it's good to set the tone for some of the things we'll talk about, especially safety. You and I have mentioned that that's so critical for going forward, is creating safety for everyone as best as possible. So I love that.
The other thing that I was going to mention is setting righteous boundaries is another way that we can embrace righteous empowerment.
And I feel like that can be so misunderstood. And as we've discussed, we'll have a whole episode for sure about that, and it'll be a subject of conversation going forward because we can't do this without that.
But when we talk about acting and not being acted upon, I don't feel like the conversation is complete without bringing in boundaries because of how critical that is.
I'd love to know your thoughts about that if you have anything to add.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Oh, I have a million thoughts. I don't know if we've discussed with this audience yet. There's a huge difference between a request and a boundary. And for me, in my healing journey from betrayal, trauma, and relationship trauma. I've had to learn when are the settings and the timings and the people, the relationships, where it's appropriate to make requests and at what point do I need to switch. So the way I would define a request is me asking somebody if they can do something or change up something that I have zero power over. Right? Because it depends on whether or not they will do it. And depending on how intense the situation is, often they're like, no, if it's really intense versus a boundary is me stating what actions I will take, what I will and I will not do. And I have full control over that. And so I've learned in my healing journey, I can switch back and forth between requests versus boundaries. I can have boundaries that are more fluid with certain people or certain settings or at certain times with the same person. There's so much to boundaries, like what you said, but going back to your number one, it's important we use our voice and in order to heal, we will need to have some sort of boundaries. So I love that this is on your list.
[00:32:55] Speaker A: I love that and I agree. And boundaries, I don't know. I remember one of our very first conversations, in fact, probably our very first conversation about this subject, and I was feeling so stuck. So I was in this victim place because I was looking at my covenants like they were more like jailers. I was really stuck to where and you were saying, well, boundaries. And I was like, Well, I don't think that's righteous, but come to find out, they really are a righteous principle that God uses. And we'll go over that more in case anybody wants to read it. I do have a great way of implementing boundaries, I think, at least for me. Yeah, it's implementing boundaries that I learned from the Garden of Eden. So you can go to my website to learn about that. It's called boundaries from the garden. And we'll for sure talk about boundaries more and discuss that process as well.
[00:33:58] Speaker B: Can I just recap what I feel like I heard you say that's so cool that boundaries can be our ticket out of victimhood.
[00:34:08] Speaker A: For sure.
[00:34:08] Speaker B: Boundaries can give us the capacity to act rather than continue to be acted upon. That is so cool. I have never thought of it that way. That's really cool.
[00:34:20] Speaker A: Jenny for me, that absolutely was what I needed. I had to have an option because if not, it was just like, well, I'm stuck in this really destructive relationship and because I have made these covenants, I just kind of have to put up with it and I need to be forgiving. And not understanding at the time that forgiveness was different than just allowing something to happen. It's like, right, we can forgive. I could forgive. And I actually was very good at forgiving, a little too good at just being like. I forgive you. A little bit of spiritual bypassing going on there to where there wasn't any accountability with it. Yeah, I love that.
The last one that I've got is finding purpose in the pain.
And I think one, you do a great job of this and I try to do this as well to where it looks like it's like this is a really painful, awful situation and here was God's plan in it. Or I'm learning this amazing thing and I'm becoming a new creature in Christ, or this is the beautiful fruit that comes from this pain. And when I can look at it that way, I feel a lot more like a victor than a victim. If that makes yes.
[00:35:50] Speaker B: Yes. And Jenny, can I just acknowledge I don't know that every woman is called to publicly monumentalize what they've been through. And in my opinion, we need many, many more voices of women who can use their circles of influence to help make this path a little bit smoother. Because unfortunately, just the betrayal trauma piece alone, not even taking into account the four A's types of relationship trauma, there are many more of us going through this than we typically have eyes to see in a given neighborhood, in a given ward, within our family. And so for those of us who feel called and for those of us who are at a point in our healing where we can reach beyond just ourselves, god uses the willing. And so when we tell Him like, hey, I am interested in helping other women, he'll show us how and we don't have to always lose our cloak of anonymity. There are so many things we can do. And then I found I didn't set out to help pave the way for others with this in mind, but I had no clue how much it would help me to continue to heal.
[00:37:28] Speaker A: Right.
[00:37:28] Speaker B: So what we send out, it comes back to us. And sometimes that's how we heal is by turning and grabbing the next woman's hand and offering her our hand and it heals a little place inside of us too.
[00:37:44] Speaker A: You just described step twelve of the twelve steps in a really beautiful way. Yeah, really, you did. So yeah, that is empowering. And like you're saying, in fact, as we've been preparing for this podcast, that has been a major factor for us is that we both still need to heal. We both still have these spots that are unhealed that we want the Savior to shine his light on.
And so yes, we're hoping that other people for sure can learn and can heal with us. But really, at least for me, it's like I'm here to heal too. I'm not better than anyone else. I'm not saying I'm completely better and you should follow my footsteps. It's like I'm with you. We're linking arms, we're finding the Savior.
[00:38:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Ditto.
[00:38:37] Speaker A: Jenny so somebody who did this really well was joseph in Know and the Lord helped him with this. I think it was like every tragedy he had was turned to gold or Know, he had the Midas touch for that.
It was really Know he's in prison and that is how he becomes second in command to the Pharaoh. Like Joseph was blessed and prospered that way, but he had this vision where he could find purpose in pain. And we know this because of a scripture from Genesis 45 five says now therefore be not grieved nor angry with yourselves that ye sold me hither for God did send me before you to preserve life.
It's like he understood this is the Know. And I do want to say I think Joseph because we bring in how positive that might sound and things, but Joseph had a really long journey. We do not know what that looked know in order to forgive his brothers and he went to extreme lengths to test them and to try them. So I'm kind of more of the opinion that it was like he had this mighty change of heart but it wasn't always that. He was always so oh, I'm so grateful they sold me into slavery. It was probably a process. And the process is we don't want to skip the process because that is what changes us. That is where the richness is found, where the depth is found, where the Savior is. And I think I have felt the Savior be really grateful to me when I've been willing to not skip over that rich goodness. And he has blessed me in ways in that then I can relate better with other people. I'm less shameless, I'm more one of everyone to where I can acknowledge better my humanity and be okay with that and to be okay that somebody else is struggling and to be able to mourn with them better. So it is this beautiful process of changing. Do you have more thoughts about that one?
[00:40:55] Speaker B: I just love that you pointed out so many of those details. And just to reiterate again, that process, the process is so important and we can't become who God intends us to become without going through these processes that shape us and refine us. And I don't know about you, but so often as I look back at the heart of that is being able to relate better to others. Like you said, that has been such a huge piece for me in my personal journey. So I just love that. I think that's such a beautiful example. And I'll find this so we can put it in the show notes, but it talks about how the Lord was with Joseph and we talked before we hit record. Like that's so critical when we journey with the Lord, even though we are going through hard things and we've been victimized and we're the target. When the Lord is with us, he turns what beauty for ashes. In Isaiah that because of Him, the things that we go through have purpose and meaning and we can come out the the other end a better person.
And others around us benefit from the wisdom that we have paid that price.
[00:42:23] Speaker A: To gain, for sure.
And I love that you bring in the Lord into it because we can develop a relationship with Him that wasn't even possible before, really.
That is part of the know. That is one of the blessings of compensation and that is purpose in the pain is to develop, at least for like, that is a price worth paying in a lot of ways. I don't always think that in the moment.
[00:42:52] Speaker B: That's what I was just about to say. I don't know, Jenny, but I think for like, if I zoom out, that is an overall price that I'm willing to pay. But man, in some of my darkest moments, it's been like, this is crazy for sure. Hard to keep that aerial view, but over time, yes, I would agree.
Averaging out my days.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: Averaging out. There we go. I love that.
Yeah. I wanted to share with the listeners the epilogue that I wrote for my book.
I wrote my book originally.
Boy, my marriage was struggling, but it was intact, and my epilogue will paint a different picture. So it's interesting because things did change pretty rapidly and pretty devastating some of the things.
And I've also found purpose in the pain, which I think comes across. So I'll read this. It's short says, I am a believer in fairy tales. Happily ever afters are definitely my thing. And I also believe that if current circumstances are less than ideal, our stories must not be finished yet.
I am living in an unfinished story right now and I'm not yet sure how it will end. I can say that my current circumstances are more of a nightmare variety. My soul feels crushed and I find myself relating to the Lord of the Vineyard from Jacob Five as I ask, what more could I have done?
I am grieving with Christ over things that could have been but aren't.
Some of the most beautiful marriages have been made from the ashes of sex addiction, and I've always hoped that that would be the case for me as well. It doesn't look like redemption will happen in my current marriage, and I am heartbroken also, though I do believe that Christ delights in penning some stunning stories, and I believe that my own story will eventually have an ending that will become amazing.
It just isn't finished yet.
Christ is the redeemer, after all. He will redeem my broken heart and someday I will find great joy in these hard trials that form my character and led to eternal destinies. Today, though, I am grieving and am finding solace that my savior has been running to me with that sucker that only he can provide. He's such a good God and I adore him. I adore you too, dear friend. Thanks for throwing buckets of water on the flames of betrayal by just being here and being you. Love, Jenny.
So that's my can I if I.
[00:45:46] Speaker B: Can talk after hearing you read that. But I think that is just such a beautiful illustration of what we are trying to discuss today. That polarity the and that you've been victimized and you are trying to move towards Victor and you are applying and have been applying the righteous empowerment that you shared with the listeners. And that's how you can have this space with the and show both.
So that is really tender and that was amazing to hear you read in your own voice. My.
[00:46:26] Speaker A: Oh, thank you, Katie. Thank you. I can read it without tears, right? You know, I sure had tears as I wrote. Oh, I believe you.
All right, as we're closing, we were talking about as we discussed this episode, the talk by elder Patrick Patrick Kieran, that's called, he has risen with healing in his wings. And there's a passage that we'll have Katie read, if that's all right.
[00:47:04] Speaker B: He says, quote, perhaps some of you, however, consider the accounts of survivors and your soul cries out that you are living a survival story right now as a victim of abuse, neglect, bullying, domestic violence or any suffering of this kind.
You are in the midst of your own desperate attempt to survive a situation that feels very much like a disastrous shipwreck or a promising mission suddenly aborted. Will you ever be rescued? Will you make it through your own survival story?
The answer is yes. You can survive. You have, in fact, already been rescued. You have already been saved by the one who has suffered the very torment you are suffering and endured the very agony you are enduring. Jesus has overcome the abuses of this world to give you power to not only survive, but one day through him, to overcome and even conquer, to completely rise above the pain, the misery, the anguish and see them replaced by peace. End quote.
[00:48:37] Speaker A: You can find
[email protected], you can find.
[00:48:41] Speaker B: Katie at gracefilledpathways Fresh.
We're both on Instagram and Facebook too.
[00:48:53] Speaker A: Thanks for exploring Christ's light with us.
