Episode Transcript
NOTE: This transcript was provided by AI technology
[00:00:05] Speaker A: I'm Jeni Brockbank.
[00:00:06] Speaker B: And I'm Katy Willis. We've experienced destructive circumstances while striving to keep our covenants, which have made us desperate for a Savior.
[00:00:21] Speaker A: We found Christ in so many unexpected places and we continue to search for Him.
Come sit with us.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Hi. Welcome to healing in Christ Light. This is Katy Willis. I get to introduce the listeners for the first time. I have Jeni Brockbank, the other co host, here with me today. We're so excited that you're here and we're grateful for this opportunity to be building community and learning from each other and learning from each of you. So thanks again for spending time with us. I'm really excited about the episode that we will be sharing with you today. And we plan to offer at least one companion in a separate episode, possibly a second companion in a third episode about this topic because there's so much information there.
So let me just tell you what we'll be talking about and then make a quick announcement and then we will move right into the content.
So as Jeni and I discussed about concepts that we feel would be most foundational as we're creating this community and putting information out there and wanting to be intentional a little bit about introducing some of the more foundational concepts. First, we landed on this concept called Window of Tolerance, and if you've never heard of it, don't worry, by the end of the episode you'll be like a total expert after all the things we're hoping to share with you and discuss together. But I just wanted to mention that this is a topic that Jeni addresses a little bit in her book. It's available for pre order right now. And if you, after listening to this episode, want to learn a little bit more about Window of Tolerance, I would recommend going to her book. And if you are interested in leaning on Jesus Christ in your healing from Betrayal trauma, I cannot emphasize enough what a huge resource Jeni's book will be for that. So Jeni, what would you like to say? And what would you like to say about your book? Where can people find it? What else do you want to share about it?
[00:02:59] Speaker A: Yeah, it's available right now. You can go to my website, healingainchristslight.com, and there's a tab for the book, but it actually just links to Amazon. So if you'd also like to just go to Amazon and search for Healing in Christs Light, I would be grateful either way. And I'm getting excited. It comes out in February, so pre orders are great. I really appreciate them and thank you. And I just want to say what I share might be a little different than what we discussed today, but I'm really excited to learn from you today, Katy, because I do recognize the work that I've done on Window of Tolerance, compared to what you've done, is like night and day. So I just feel like I am going to learn a lot from you and I'm excited. So thanks.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: Oh, thanks. That's humbling. Won't it be funny by the end of the episode if we find out that you're actually the window of tolerance.
[00:03:56] Speaker A: Specialist and I'm not?
[00:03:58] Speaker B: We're assuming I know more than you, but it might not.
As we segue into the topic, can I just tell a little story?
My 13 year old has autism and he is like a math brainiac and it's quite impressive. He'll do really complicated math problems in his head, like that is his favorite way to spend his free time. And I wrote a post on my personal facebook page a couple of weeks back, but it was so cute.
A couple of weeks back I have two high schoolers and they were both sitting there doing their math. One doesn't mind math, but he's not as passionate as my 13 year old. But then the other hates math. So they're sitting there trying to gruel through their math and just get it done. And my 13 year old came up to me and he said, mom, I am drooling over all of this math.
I kind of feel like with this episode I'm like, Jeni, I am drooling over.
We get to talk about brain geek stuff and body geek stuff. Like I'm so excited. But I'm hopeful that we can present it in a way that we can give you some vocabulary words as listeners. But not to overwhelm you, I feel like giving you some vocabulary words will be so important because if you have these vocabulary words and you feel like this is a topic that resonates with you, you can then take those vocabulary words into your own studying and searching and be able to run with it as deep as you need to go. Similar for me, until the word betrayal trauma became more well known, it was challenging for me to find resources and supports. But once I knew that word, a whole world opened up to me. Because we were all talking about betrayal trauma, we just had to sync up to know that we were all talking about the same thing. So I'll try to not get too like Jeni, help me to not get too brain geek drooling over the things that we'll talk about in this episode. So I felt like a good place to start would be to start with some of these vocabulary words. And again, it's not my intent to be know brainiac with it, but to help you to have the language to start understanding.
If you are like Jeni and I and are betrayal trauma survivors and relationship trauma survivors, it can be really empowering to understand what might be happening inside of you. And if you are somebody seeking to support somebody healing from trauma, it can be really critical for you to understand these vocabulary words totally.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: And I'll just add that for me maybe a little different language in case it resonates with someone. Is that for me? I need words for what I've been through. It is a critical part of my healing. And so sometimes it's like I can't describe it. I don't understand even what has happened per se. Sometimes it's confusing, especially if it's in the realm of emotional abuse or something like that. I don't necessarily have words for that. It's like, my goodness, I feel like I was just in an earthquake. It was awful, and what in the world happened? And so until I can put words to it and then really understand actually that was damaging and this is why, then I'm going to have a hard time healing from. So I think it's really critical to set this foundation. So. Thank you, Katy.
[00:07:47] Speaker B: I love that. Jeni, I think there's so much truth in what you just said, and we have to heal that part. In order to heal, we have to have the words to do it. So I love that. Okay, so vocabulary word number one. This is a part of our brains, and I'm guessing you probably have heard this, Jeni. It's called the amygdala. And I love when a lot of people describe it. They describe it as basically the smoke detector of our brain. In the book the Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Vanderkolk on page 42, we'll put that in the show notes. He says, quote, "We depend on the amygdala to warn us of impending danger and to activate the body stress response. We'll talk about that in a minute. So then referencing some brain scan results, he says, our study clearly showed that when traumatized people are presented with images, sounds or thoughts related to their particular experience, the amygdala reacts with alarm. Activation of this fear of this fear center triggers the cascade of stress hormones and nerve impulses that drive up blood pressure, heart rate and oxygen intake, preparing the body for fight or flight. So we have a part in our brain that its job is to scan for threats.
And I don't know about you, I'm thankful I've got a smoke alarm in my home. It's helpful. We need that to be able to go off. And for those of us who have been through betrayal, trauma, or other forms of relationship trauma, we'll talk more here in just a second.
[00:09:31] Speaker A: But just to add, if they've been through abuse, somebody with addiction, somebody with abusive patterns, yeah, destructive patterns, anything like that, smoke alarms are important. And I'll add too, that they can malfunction.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that's where I was going.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Okay, sorry.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: Because of what we've been through. And I'm glad that in my mind, I'm like, oh, relationship trauma includes all that. So I'm thankful that you clarified to our listeners because, yes, patterns, destructive patterns in our closest relationships, especially, it's traumatizing.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: It is.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: So you think about those of us who are trauma survivors, regardless of what type, but of trauma that's happening from destructive patterns in our relationships and it can happen in other forms of trauma too. But this part of the brain is rewired. So because we've been through something, either a big event or a couple big events or a number of things that seem smaller, but the cumulative impact is really hard on us.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: Like a thousand paper cuts. Paper cuts?
[00:10:46] Speaker B: Like a thousand paper cuts. Yeah. Like Tony, my therapist says yes, death by a thousand cuts. Exactly. This part of the brain gets rewired. So now the job of this part of the brain is to keep us safe. It's to sound the alarm. So now it's more jumpy compared to somebody who has not been through trauma like that. It's going to sound more easily when it goes off. It might really be loud and freaking out. It'll stay on longer or maybe even just stay on and have a hard time going off. So in terms of like a smoke alarm, I can't remember if I've ever told this story before.
The first apartment that my husband and I lived in as newlyweds, there was a smoke alarm right outside of the bathroom and I can't remember if there was even like a ventilation fan or not. But I kid you not, I love hot showers. I'll take cold ones in the morning, but like before bed, I love a hot shower, hot bath.
The steam from the hot showers was setting the smoke alarm off. So this is kind of what it's like as a trauma survivor. It's like we need that alarm. We need the smoke alarm to go off when we need to, but we don't need it to go off when I'm taking a hot shower or we don't need it to go off when the toast is burning in the toaster. I need it to go off when there's a fire and I need to be alerted and get to safety or pull out my I can't think what is it called? What is that word? I've lost the word fire extinguisher. Jeni's like Katy, I don't know what you're trying to extinguish know we need it. But it becomes really touchy because it gets rewired. Because this part of our brain's job is to protect us and it's like we don't want to go through that. So things that remind our brain like 10ft even anywhere close to what we've been through, it's like sound the alarm.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Right.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Whereas pre trauma we wouldn't have been that jumpy. What would you add about the amygdala, Jeni?
[00:13:00] Speaker A: Well, I would add about this subject in general is that for me, I would add what it looks like for me when my amygdala is like, I don't know, warning me about something that is maybe not what it's like doing is saying you are going to die and I'm going to protect you. It is that level of terror in my body, in my brain to where I am needing to address that right off, if that makes sense for me.
I am going to feel unsafe. I might be hyper alert of my circumstances. I might question what people are saying when I'm in that place. I might not really be able to think as clearly as I would like.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:50] Speaker A: What about you, Katy? What would it look like for you to have that heightened?
[00:13:56] Speaker B: I love that you are asking that. And can I just really quickly say this goes hand in hand with our previous episode when we talked about victimhood versus victimized and remember how we said, yeah, that's a trauma response when we're stuck in that victimhood sometimes.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: This is why it's a bodily so I love the way that you're describing it and I relate so much with that that it's like there might be something that could even legitimately be a threat, but it's like way high overreaction to that for me. I feel like I can't breathe. My chest feels tight, my throat feels tight. I just feel really jacked up is the word that I feel like I often use.
And sometimes I've found that this isn't even happening, like real time. Like for example, right now I'm trying to process on some really big life events and make some really big decisions and there's just a lot on my plate. So lately I noticed in the evenings when the kids finally go to bed, I'm kind of feeling jacked up and I'm having a hard time transitioning and relaxing. So in that situation, I started taking a warm bath at night and putting in some Epsom salt and some essential oils and just turning on some music that often like Christian rock or sometimes yoga mantras and turning the lights off and just taking that time in the bath to just kind of come down from that jacked up state. Because sometimes for me, my Amygdala is on hyper alert and it's not like a convenient time for me to lean into that. As a mom with kids sometimes you can't always respond in real time. So yeah, I love that so much.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: And I appreciate what you're saying because I had something this morning and I was praying and could just feel heavenly Father was trying to give me some kind of message or revelation. I'm trying to listen, but I could tell that I was elevated and I was so distressed that I could not understand.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: And a fascinating thing happened was I went and laid down and my sweet dog just came and kind of laid by me and I just sat there and I felt her heartbeat and I felt her soft, soft ears and she's heavy, she's like 80 pounds. So at one point I was laying on my side and she was laying on her side, but she was kind of laying on my legs and it felt like a weighted blanket and I needed it, I needed the companionship and just the presentness to notice. I would feel her ribs here, and I felt that the softest part of her body, is her ears. And, boy, I love how that feels.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: That's cool.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Jeni and that was really soothing to me. So I love what you're saying, and I know we'll get into more tools later, but I'm just relating a lot with what you're sharing with your bath experience. And I'm thinking, gosh to turn off the lights.
That's amazing.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: I have lots of stimulation all day long. Like there's enough light under the door.
Yeah. Jeni I love that. And everybody may not relate to this, and that's okay. But personally, one of my favorites when I'm feeling really activated is to open my body toolbox, which, being a yoga instructor, like, it's usually breath or yoga movement, and then I'll open my scriptures. But if I try to open my scriptures first, when I'm feeling really activated, I resonate so much with what you said. I know God's there, and I know that my savior's grace is there, but I can't translate it in the state that I'm currently in until I come down out of that activated state.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah, when we're looking at the whole picture, right, we have emotions, we have a spirit, we have a body. And when you're talking about our body is activated, and yet we're trying to jump into something else that's, you know, a part of our brain, well, sometimes I do have to calm my body down before I can think about other things. So that was really well said, Katy. Thank you.
[00:18:26] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I totally relate with that. Okay, so next vocab. Word is also another part of the brain. This is called medial prefrontal cortex.
So if we could see each other eye to eye, like I'm thumping on my forehead, it's that part of our brain that I keep talking about, Jeni saying, but we don't have access. It's our thinking part. It's the part of our brain that can help us process things. It's the part of our brain that can help us put things together, be objective, without the emotional part of our brain taking over. And when we are under stressful situations, this ideally can be our first choice to be able to process the information that's coming in. Whether it's information that's coming in through our five senses or information that's coming in from our body up to our brain, ideally, this can be our first stop. Because isn't that great when we can kind of step back, be objective, be an observer, kind of have an aerial view and put all the pieces together and decide how to respond from that place? I mean, personally, I'm like, yay, I'm a good adult when I come from there.
And again, the challenge is we have the amygdala, like we've talked about. It's there for a reason. We need a smoke alarm to go off when there is a fire.
God masterfully designed that part of our brain because we need to be able to respond from a place that can be reactive.
This is so fascinating to me. We are mammals, right? Sometimes I think it can be.
Sometimes we don't recognize that animalistic part of us because we're more than just reactive. We have more than just the instinctual part of our brain. We've got this part of our brain that we're talking about with our prefrontal cortex that we have access to that other mammals don't or it's not developed to the depth that it is for us as humans, that sometimes we can forget that we share that animalistic part. And so the amygdala is there so that we don't have to take the time to access this prefrontal cortex part of our brain to slow it down, to weigh all of the pieces and then respond. Because in certain situations where there is a fire going on and there is a true threat, we have to be able to bypass that part of our brain. It would take too long. So the amygdala is awesome because it's like, hey, toss the ball over to me because meaning don't have the prefrontal cortex. Sit and stew on this. Hand it over to me. I'm going to flip the switch. I'm going to sound the alarm.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: I'm going to keep us safe.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: I'm going to raise that heart rate. I'm going to get us breathing. I'm going to raise the blood pressure so we can fight, run away or last case resort, roll over a dead possum freeze, right?
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: So for trauma survivors, because the amygdala is impacted and our brain is rewired, very often the amygdala becomes the first choice when we are under stressful situations. And so when I learned that and I'm like, oh, my gosh, that is so validating because I felt like I was trying to approach it like what we were just talking about from a logical standpoint. And I'm trying to access parts of my brain that I don't have access to.
I just felt so validated that it's like, yeah, that trauma and the triggers, my brain just kicks in and does its thing, right? And again, when we're trauma survivors, that amygdala can take over. I don't know what it was like for you, Jeni, and I'd love to hear if you want to share, but for me, there were so many times when I was first starting to heal that I was embarrassed because of how reactive I was, like, how easily I was triggered and how super triggered I would be. But I didn't know how to get out of that at first.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:22:49] Speaker B: It was really overwhelming. And so when I learned this stuff, it's like, oh, it's not me, it's my brain. It's my brain trying to protect me. And look at how cool that is because look at what I've lived through. So of course my brain would be like, yeah, let's not go through that ever again. So I'm just going to turn that smoke alarm on anytime we get anywhere, even kind of close right, to what you've already lived through, because I want to protect you. Go ahead.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: Well, and just to share a personal experience about when it was misfiring, I guess, for me was at one point, I was in our bedroom with my husband. I had his phone, and I was looking at evidence of him acting out.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: And I remember going into a flight response that was so severe, and it was the first one I had ever had, so I didn't know what it was, but what I knew was as we were talking, he was standing in front of the door. I don't think he was blocking me, but that's where he was.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Your brain. Yeah.
[00:24:00] Speaker A: So I was running, and I started running, and the only place to go was in our bathroom. He knew where I was, and I was in the shower.
So that was a time for me when it was a really severe fight, flight or freeze kind of response. And for me, it was flight that day. But I think that you're right, those episodes can be embarrassing because I know in the moment I'm not physically in danger right now.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: Right, but your brain is responding as if you are physically in danger. It's not totally the amygdala's job is not to weigh am I in danger or not?
[00:24:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: That's the prefrontal cortex, and we don't have access. I guess I don't think I said it clearly, like it's one or the other. Yeah, we don't get to have a mix. Either the amygdala is going to respond to the stress or the prefrontal cortex will.
It's one or the other. So if one is responding when the amygdala is going off and the alarm is going off, we now are offline to be able to access the prefrontal Cortex right. Don't have access to it when the amygdala is firing. Sorry, go ahead.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: No, and as we were talking about this, we were discussing some different scriptural things that we could bring in. And I'm thinking here, this is a good point to pull in Captain Moroni, who is amazing here's captain Moroni. Right. This is Alma 48: 17, and he's like the hero of so many, me included. I adore Captain Moroni. And it says, "if all men had been and were and ever would be like unto to Moroni, behold, the very powers of hell would have been shaken forever. Yea, the devil would never have power over the hearts of the children of men. Well, fast forward then, though.
Here is the Amazing Moroni. And as I was studying it this morning, and my heart was actually just going out to him because, gosh, I mean, people were dying, but he was jumping to conclusions. And so that part of his brain like you're talking about that is letting you think objectively, letting you be curious. It's offline.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And can I jump in and add he was in survival mode. They were in hard battle, and when we were chatting about it, Jeni, you're like, he was hangry, they were starving. He was just trying to survive. So you can bet his amygdala was like activated on hyper alert, watching for threats from the battleground, having to take.
[00:26:52] Speaker A: Totally, totally. And my heart just goes out to him because of what he was going through.
At the time, the chief governor is Pahoran. I love Pahorn's response, by the way, because he was obviously using the prefrontal cortex part of his brain to think through and it's beautiful yeah, but Moroni on the other hand, was really struggling at this point. So I just want to say that for me, running into the shower, or whatever the case may be, when we have these shutdowns or we're heightened in ways that just feel uncontrollable, we're not alone. Okay, so here's Moroni. I have some highlights for what he told Pahoran. And just to remind listeners, Pahorn at the time was unable to go and help for the most part because they were in some serious trouble themselves. And so it's not that he was really neglecting them, it's just that he had been kicked out of power and he was struggling himself. And so here are a few things that Moroni told Pahoran. He said, "for behold, I have somewhat to say unto them by the way of condemnation" . And then the end of verse five.
Wait, and this is Alma 60, by the way. And then "yea great has been your neglect toward us." And then verse six, "we desire to know the case of your thoughtless state." And my favorite is verse seven where it says, "can you think to sit upon your thrones in a state of thoughtless stupor while your enemies are spreading the work of death around you?" And so instead of staying curious and trying to figure it out I know it's validating, right?
[00:28:48] Speaker B: Picturing him like "you'e thoughtless stupor," totally.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: And sit on your throne. Yeah, it's like totally, totally. So I look at that and Pahoran, boy, his response was so humble. And he saw Moroni's greatness of heart. He didn't take it personally. It's meltworthy how Pahoran responded. But meanwhile, this is hard stuff. And so even the mighty Captain Moroni can struggle with this sort of thing like we do.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that you brought out that example in the scriptures. Because for me, it's like, oh yeah, I can hold myself with so much compassion.
I'm a trauma survivor. I'm the target of destructive patterns in my relationship. My brain has been rewired.
Hey, I can give myself some grace because look over here at Moroni. This great man, he himself struggled with this.
It's not something that I feel like we can muscle our way through.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: But the good news that we'll get to is we have options. Just because our brain has been rewired and our nervous system has been weakened because of trauma, we don't have to stay stuck, but we need to be committed to work on it and the Lord will help. So yeah, Jeni, I love that you shared that. Okay, thank you. Are we ready? Another vocab word?
[00:30:26] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: We get it. I'm drooling over all the brain geek stuff. Jeni, limbic system.
We talked about the part of our brain that's like our thinking part of our brain. But now this limbic system is the part that is in charge of our emotions, our mood, our instincts. And then I don't know how this word will land, I'll explain it, but arousal meaning nervous system arousal, not sexual arousal, but like yeah, that's part of it too. But when we're saying arousal, we're talking about is the nervous system getting activated and jacked up, is the nervous system getting totally shut down.
That's what we're meaning by arousal. So the amygdala's job is to fire, to sound the alarm, and it pulls the switch on this limbic, on this feeling part of the brain, and then it starts this whole cascade throughout the body to shunt energy and tighten the blood vessels and all of the things so that the body can respond to a perceived crisis.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: Got you. So I have a question about that then. So say the amygdala is misfiring and it's doing it a lot, right. So for some of us who are living in maybe chronic trauma that is just not relenting, I would think that for the limbic system that would wear it down eventually.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:32:00] Speaker A: Either put us in high states of anxiety or depression or something else to where it's too much. So the body compensates in that way. Is that right?
[00:32:11] Speaker B: You're spot on. I don't know if you remember the first episode that we did together when we were talking about when we're mismatched and we're trying to be one in Christ and we're trying to show up and with certain people, if they're not actively trying to be one in Christ too, we're holding all of this tension. That was exactly what I was referencing when I talked about like our bodies were not designed to hold that level of stress long term. We do. We see it in the body because this state is a revved up state again, our heart rate is elevated, our blood pressure is elevated, our respiratory rate is elevated. Those are all objective measurable things.
And even that alone changes when we hit this cascade of amygdala and limbic system and get ready for fight, flight, freeze. So when we're living in that state, it impacts our physical health, it can impact our mental health.
And I wanted to hit on that as we move here to start talking about window of tolerance. I'm looking at. It from two angles. There's the one angle know, Jeni, I love that you shared that personal example of you're in the shower, you're running away, you're in flight.
Sometimes we're temporarily outside of our window of tolerance and we'll define that in a second. But we also have to look at it from the chronic standpoint. And in my opinion, at my personal experience, my professional experience, we need tools for both. We need some awareness of how do I say this? The practice is beginning to name sensations and notice them and respond to them in the moment.
And there is so much wisdom in developing daily practices that will give us opportunities to be within our window of tolerance and to have our nervous system in a state of what we call rest and digest intentionally throughout the day. Okay, let me maybe explain it a different way for me.
I shared with Jeni before we hit record. I just had some really big news with one of my kiddos that I'm going to need to rearrange my life to get into a treatment program.
And I've learned that the higher levels of stress that I'm going through, the more I need to up my self care, which for me, I would say self care for me looks like that rest and digest state, taking care of my body physically, my mind, my spiritual connection to God.
If I am going to be in relationships or circumstances or situations where I am going to be on this jacked up hyper alert more than if I wasn't in those relationships or situations or circumstances, I have to raise my time that I'm spending in a calm state in order to counterbalance that and keep up with it.
So I love that you asked that, because if you feel like we can segue, I think that leads right into window of tolerance.
[00:35:34] Speaker A: Yes, but can I read something really quick? This is from Dr. Sheri Keffer. Because I love what you're saying about self care because that is the key for me to self regulate. And the best self care I do is where I'm really tuning into my body and seeing what do I need in the moment. It is like being self sufficient. And this really helped me with shame around that subject. And this is by Dr. Sheri Keffer in her book called Intimate Deception. And it says "yet I believe the idea of self care is often underrated and misunderstood when it comes to healing post traumatic stress. Self care is not an indulgence, it's a necessity. Our bodies, brains and minds need help to calm down. They literally can't do it on their own."
So I love what you're saying because I feel like when I can look at it like actually this will benefit everybody, it's not selfish at all. It is something that absolutely has to happen for me to be able to take care of my family in the most productive ways that I possibly can. So thank you.
[00:36:48] Speaker B: I love that. I'm so glad that you shared that because, you know, especially as women, a lot of us feel like we have to wear a million different hats and we kind of do. And so it's like you're telling me, Katy and Jeni, that I need to spend more time calm. I don't have more time. But I feel like for me it was a turning point when I realized this is necessary. Because if I don't make the time each day and it doesn't have to be a long, complicated thing, it can be like, I'm going to take a couple of extra deep breaths while I'm waiting in line for the carpool to pick up my kids. But I'm going to be intentional about it for 1 minute.
But if I don't take that time each day now, it will impact my physical health and even maybe my mental health later in big ways because we cannot put this off and ignore it.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: It builds up.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: Our body cannot function well when we're in these states chronically. So I love that you pointed that out.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: And just to say it could even be I'm feeling this strong emotion and really leaning into it for a little bit so that it can run its course and run through and it's not something that is going to plague me then once it heals.
But if I'm not going to do that, then it's going to just stay in my body, keep resurfacing, keep coming up and reminding me I'm hurt, I'm hurt. And I'm like, yeah, but let's you know, put a little more dirt over here.
Bury that emotion just a little deeper and then it takes longer to heal.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Jeni I think that's so perfect because, again, the limbic system, that's our feeling part of our brain.
And so when we are in that activated state where the amygdala has sounded, the limbic system has been activated.
I don't know about you, but I can have some really big feelings. And there are people who are of the school of thought that our feelings are reactive. But something that I love for my coaching training is they taught us they're actually protective.
[00:38:57] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: So when we can take the message that they're delivering, it's good information. Now, how this ties into window of tolerance, then one definition of window of tolerance could be we're having an emotional response for those of us who are trauma survivors.
I don't know, maybe our listeners will be like, no, I really don't have big feelings. But for me and it sounds like for you, Jeni, that can be off the charts, you know, really intense. And then the question is, well, do I have options to meet those needs? That kind of like we were talking a minute ago of like, okay, if I'm having higher stress through my circumstances, through my relationship, through my environment, wherever the source is, I need to up my self care and my time in a rest and digest state. Similar to that, If I'm having emotions that are so intense, do I have tools, coping skills, resources? How do I say this? The goal is not to be like, okay, I'm ready to hit the shut off valve on these feelings now let's hurry and stop feeling because this is hard. This is icky. I don't want to feel it. That's not the goal. The goal to do this in a healthy way is like, how can I sit with myself in this? Because this is good information. And so in order to do that, I'm going to need to bring in some coping skills, either through my body, through my mind, through a spiritual avenue, to meet this emotional response. So when we are able to meet that emotional response by adjusting ourselves, one definition is that's what our window of tolerance is, that we're not going outside of our capacity to sit with ourselves in this emotional response.
[00:40:57] Speaker A: I love that. I have a thought, too, that is just coming to me, and it's about temples, because we're told our body is the temple of God, right? And if I'm thinking about a temple and say there's a maintenance problem with it and there's something wrong with the plumbing or something, I really need to take care of that problem before say it's a really bad problem. And the temple has to be closed for a couple of weeks, that's okay, because we are taking care of this problem so that we can then enjoy the spirit of the Lord there and perform ordinances and make covenants and do all the beautiful things that happen in temples. But until that maintenance problem is taken care of, we are limited as to what we can do. And so when we're looking for me, when I'm looking at a whole soul, it's the body and the spirit.
I think it's easy to say push through the body aspect of it and to ignore that part of it a little too much to where then I am thinking I can push through and I can do this mentally. And I can keep going when really, what I'm needing to do is slow down, take some breaths, perform whatever maintenance is needing to be done, and then I can move on in a better way. When that healing has happened, when that maintenance has occurred.
[00:42:33] Speaker B: Oh, I love that. Can I add two thoughts to that?
[00:42:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: Number one, the language of the limbic system. Again, that's the feeling part of our brain is sensation, and it's like the check engine light coming on our car. It'll come on through sensation. So when we learn to notice it and pay attention and respond, then we're not going to be stuck with a flood in our temple, so to speak. Like we can address it and move on. The second thought, I don't know if you know this, but Mark used to work on call at the temple at night.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: Mark being husband. Right.
[00:43:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:13] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:43:14] Speaker B: Listeners are like, Who's Mark? My husband. And it was fascinating. One time he brought home the list that they do every night, and they have lists for volunteers that come in and help, but they're cleaning the temple all night long. And I would imagine there's probably a similar maintenance list elsewhere.
So hearing you share about the temple analogy, I'm like, okay. And that goes with we are not only needing to pause when that check engine light comes on and there's a problem in our temple and address that, but we also need to do daily maintenance. And when we do a little bit each day, we can avoid things building up. We can avoid things going unnoticed and ideally, not becoming something that's a crisis. Not always, but sometimes by doing that little bit every day. To work on this long term is what's going to rewire our brain back, to be able to have that amygdala calmed down and to have more and more access to the prefrontal cortex as first choice. And also here. To strengthen our nervous system so that we can tolerate more before that amygdala goes off and we can kind of hover in that prefrontal cortex longer.
Yeah. So I love that. That's cool. Okay, so we need to give credit where credit's do. And this term window of tolerance, I love that it's becoming popular.
Back in 1999, Dr. Dan Siegel wrote a book called The Developing Mind How Relationships and the Brain Interact To Shape Who We Are. So in his book, this is how he defines window of tolerance. Quote, "a band of optimal functioning that flows between chaos on one side and rigidity on the other."
This flow emerges from integrative processes and has the features of he names an acronym F.A.C.E.S. being Flexible, Adaptive, Coherent, Energized, and Stable. So when we're noticing that F.A.C.E.S. acronym, that can be a good indicator that we are within our window of tolerance. I like the visual that his definition paints because I feel like the window of tolerance is like moderation, but then on either side, we could either have the chaos and things are just crazy and over stimulating, but then on the other side, like, rigidity shut down. We want to kind of be moderated in the totally.
Another thought I think hopefully fits in my mind. It feels like it does. So for those of us who've been through trauma, we process from the bottom part of our brain up.
So the first step is, if we are outside of that window of tolerance, we need to be able to get back into our window, and we'll talk in the second episode. We'll give you a lot of things that you can try, play with and hopefully take and run in personalized directions. But that first step is if we're hitting the chaos or we're hitting the rigidity, we need to come back into our window. We need to regulate. And then once we're regulated, then we can relate.
We can have awareness of ourself at that point. Or if we are having an interaction with other people, then at that point, after we are within our window, we can relate to the other people around us. And then at that point, as we have that awareness and we can relate to self, we can relate to others, then we can access that prefrontal cortex part of our brain and have access to the reason.
So often when it's either we ourselves or it's a support person, we can come from the opposite direction. We're expecting people to be able to reason when the amygdala is firing and the limbic system is going off and we're outside of our window of tolerance. And then we can be frustrated with ourselves or we can be frustrated with the person who's being activated.
But first and foremost, the person has to get regulated. And I'm thinking as a mom with four kids, three of them with special needs, so often my kids can't get regulated on their own.
They're at various stages of that. It's things that they're working on. But if I'm upset and my child's upset, it's just getting worse. So as a support person, I have to be regulated as well.
Otherwise that's putting a lot on the target to get regulated in an environment that is not safe and supportive for that. But we have to start in that regulated state. Then relate. Then we can reason.
I want to share one other thought too. Something that I teach kids in my yoga classes and parents who have kids in my yoga classes. We talk about a brain stoplight.
So you think about a stoplight. Green means go. It means I can cross this intersection without the traffic from the opposite direction hitting me, right? That's when I want to go, is when I'm in green. So when we're in that window of tolerance, that is a state where we are able to learn, we are able again to access the logic.
And then the red light means stop. When we are outside of that window of tolerance, when our nervous system is jacked up or our nervous system is totally shut down, it's not going to be productive to try to problem solve either ourselves or with another person who's disregulated.
And so then also we have yellow.
Can I add towards yeah, please.
[00:49:34] Speaker A: I'm sorry, can I add to that one really quick?
Just to put that personally for what that looks like for me is my brain is going: I've had this traumatic thing happen and it's going a million miles a minute. And I think I have to solve that problem, right? Then I think I have to fix it. And I'm like, okay, and what about this aspect and this aspect and this aspect? And really, it's not until I calm down, until I can soothe my body and my soul, that I can really listen to Heavenly Father and say, oh, now I can hear the revelation. Now I can figure out the direction I need to go. But that has to be calm first. Sorry, go ahead.
[00:50:16] Speaker B: Totally. I love that because our best responses and our best information is going to have the best chance to get through when we're in green brain, when we're in red brain, we're not going to make great choices. We're not going to be able to have things come through and absorb instead.
[00:50:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:50:36] Speaker B: But then there's also yellow brain, which when I see yellow light, like, okay, I try to stop if I safely can. Right. And again, the language of the limbic system is sensation.
As we learn to start observing and start naming and start playing with this, we might start to notice that, hey, there's yellow, indicating that I'm heading towards that chaos end outside of my window or I'm heading towards that rigidity end and I just want to validate. Again, as trauma survivors, it may not be yellow for very long before it goes red.
When we start playing with this in our lives and in our bodies, like, it might be green yellow, now it's red back and forth. But the more awareness we bring to it and the more we intentionally play with it, the more we will get to know ourselves, our bodies, our thought patterns, our emotional patterns, and we can respond and learn from what we've tried in the past. That might be a good starting point for the next time when we're going through something similar.
So it's important to note that trauma weakens the nervous system by narrowing our window of tolerance.
Meaning, like we talked about at first with the amygdala, the limbic system, it doesn't take as much information coming in from our body up to our brain to kick off that amygdala. We can't tolerate very much because of what we've been through. So I just want to validate, as trauma survivors, most of us start with a really narrow window of tolerance. Jeni, do you mind? I wonder if now might be good to go to the Book of Mormon and share that example. Okay. And I just want to acknowledge I love as Jeni and I were talking about this content, Jeni asked, well, where can I find this in the scriptures?
And I love that Jeni asked that and we're like, we can find it in the scriptures.
[00:52:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:46] Speaker B: So I sent Jeni a picture last night as we were preparing for the episode. And I'm like, how cool is it that my Book of Mormon is next to my copy of The Body Keeps the Score? And Dan Siegel's book, I loved it.
[00:52:58] Speaker A: Honestly, it brought tears because it's like there's truth found in lots of places. And to figure out how it all works, together is really a powerful, righteously, empowering experience.
[00:53:12] Speaker B: Yeah. I believe God and Jesus, they want us to know about this. They've given us examples. Okay, so this is in one Nephi chapter 17. And I have always found this chapter so intriguing because Lehi and his family are traveling through the wilderness. And at the first half of the chapter, we hear from Nephi's perspective. And then about partway through the chapter, then we pan over to Laman and Lemuel and they've all gone through the same things, but we hear how Laman and Lemuel have been experiencing it. And as I'm reading, think about it in terms of a window of tolerance, a narrow window versus a wide window. Okay, so this is Nephi. He says, we did travel and wade through much affliction in the wilderness, and our women did bear children in the wilderness.
That was verse one. I'm going to come back to verse two in a minute.
But in verse three, he says, thus we see that the commandments of God, oh, must be fulfilled. He doth nourish them and strengthen them, and provide means whereby they can accomplish the things which he hath commanded them, wherefore he did provide means for us while we did sojourn in the wilderness. So he's like, hey, the Lord is taking care of us. Like everything's working out. Yeah, it's hard. We're having afflictions, but we're good. So you jump over to verse eight, and he's talking about how the Lord was showing him how to build a ship. In verse twelve, he's like, the Lord told us that we wouldn't even have to cook our food. He made it sweet. So we're eating all this raw meat. It's so awesome.
And he talked about how the Lord promised to be their light and prepare the way before them. And I thought this was sweet. He also promised that they would know that it was by the Lord that they were led. So went through hard times, but Nephi is like, it was awesome. And then we flip over to verse 20 and listen from Laman and Lemuel's perspective.
They're talking to Nephi. They said, and "thou art like our Father, led away by the foolish imaginations of his heart. Yea, he hath led us out of the land of Jerusalem. We've wandered in the wilderness for these many years, and our women have toiled being big with child, and they've borne children in the wilderness and suffered all things save it were death. And it would have been better that they had died before they came out of Jerusalem than to have suffered these afflictions. Behold, these many years we have suffered in the wilderness, which time we might have enjoyed our possessions and the land of our inheritance. Yea, and we might have been happy."
And then you jump over to verse 45, and I thought this was so interesting. This is Nephi now responding to Laman and Lemuel. And he says, the Lord has spoken unto you in a still, small voice, but ye were past feeling that you could not feel his.
Then, you know, we contrast back again. Nephi in verse two saying, and "so great were the blessings of the Lord upon us, that while we did live upon raw meat in the wilderness, our women did give plenty of suck for the children, and they were strong, yea even likened to the men, and they began to bear their journeyings without murmurings." So I think so often for me, I'm trying to find a million reasons to not be Laman. And like, I'm not like that, but when I look at that chapter from the perspective of a window of tolerance, I'm like, okay, but I kind of know that Nephi and Laman and Lemuel are going through the same thing.
And what if Laman and Lemuel had a narrow window of tolerance? They really did not have the same capacity that Nephi had.
And I want to be careful in how I say this because I don't want the listeners to be like and Katy's saying that I'm like Laman and Lemuel, but I feel like it's relatable that when we go through challenges, when we have a narrow window of tolerance, we are interpreting that information differently than when we have been handed the tools and we've been empowered. We have the knowledge and we're putting in the time and the energy and the effort to strengthen our nervous system, to widen that window of tolerance so that we can experience our world around us and also our inner world without constantly getting thrown into yellow light and red light and back and forth and the amygdala going off. And it's such a stressful state to be living in.
We can strengthen our window of tolerance no matter what we've been through and like, we still are going to have to go through hard stuff, right? Like, Nephi still had to journey in the wilderness, too, but he had the capacity to process that in a different and like, you've brought up multiple times in this, Jeni. Like, he'd calmed down enough, it sounds like, with physical needs and taking care of his body, taking care of his mind, that the spiritual part could come through and touch him and he could see the Lord's hand in it and that the Lord was providing for them in some pretty miraculous ways. What do you think?
[00:58:41] Speaker A: Well, something that is really standing out to me is the difference \ between Nephi and Laman and Lemuel and I'm with you where I can be in those places where it's like, this is hard, this is terrible. But Nephi, the thing that I'm noticing that's the difference is gratitude and kind of why wanting to address this a little bit is I'm wondering if you know Katy and maybe you don't, maybe we should look it up. I don't know. But does gratitude, is that required in the prefrontal cortex?
Because you have to stay curious. You have to look for positive things. You have to be more intentional and more present in order to be grateful for hard circumstances. And so I am just guessing that as we're looking at the fact that we're supposed to be grateful in all things. Well, is there a blessing in that physically, in that it does something for us and for our brains that we can show up in different, better ways?
[00:59:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Two thoughts. Jeni I think that's so rad. Number one, I learned when we were looking at becoming foster parents, something that the trainer taught us is when you ask a person questions, it can help that prefrontal cortex come online. So my first response is, well, I'm asking myself a question. What am I grateful for?
My second thing to share is I don't know if I've told you this before, but I've kept a gratitude journal maybe about two years.
Every day I just jot down... I didn't expect to be emotional. I jot down three things from the previous day that had me stop and just kind of feel wow.
Or sometimes if I've had a really intense busy day, it's like I'm looking for that moment now and what can I look back on from my day yesterday that has me seeing God's hand in my life and feeling grateful? And I love that you brought that up because I'm like, well, if it doesn't work for anybody else, that's fine. But for me, I feel like that's been one of those things that we talked about a couple episodes ago that's helped to keep my heart soft. Is that even similar to Nephi? We're eating raw meat and it's hard and the women are becoming strong even though there's all of these challenging things to pull out the blessings in the midst of my personal struggles, it's done something to so I love that.
[01:01:32] Speaker A: That's so beautiful. Thank you, Katy.
[01:01:35] Speaker B: So I'm almost wondering, how do you feel? Jeni, if we talk about the third scriptural example that we have, and then maybe we just wrap up this episode. There were a couple other vocabulary words that I felt like would be helpful, but I think we can discuss them in part two because I think they'll weave well enough.
And in that part two, again, we want to just lay out some options and maybe kind of make it a brainstorming session, share from what's worked for us. I can share from my professional knowledge and working with clients and students, some go to's that might be a good starting point to be able to come back into our window of tolerance, to come back to Green brain, to get that prefrontal cortex back online. Because we've got our nervous system calmed down not only in the moment, but also, again, looking at it from like a lifestyle choice to counterbalance when we are in chronically stressful environments, circumstances and relationships, So I feel like that leads into some final thoughts. As I was going through my information and my books and my materials, trying to create an outline for this episode, the question hit me hard and really tenderly. Does Jesus care about the state of our nervous system?
Does he care that our brains have been rewired, that our nervous system has been weakened? Does this even matter?
And I just felt so deeply that, yeah, He does.
This is not like, separate from His power. That like, oh, well, it's just my body, it's just my brain, it's just my nervous system. He can't help me with that stuff. That's not true.
He can help us with this stuff. And I don't know how He's going to help you as listeners or Jeni as you continue on your journey. I don't know the details of what that will look like, but for me, it has looked like just the right book, just the right podcast episode, just the right therapist, just the right tool at the right time for me to learn more about what I've needed to learn. And then for me, I feel like the spirit has helped me a lot as I've set that intention in my morning prayers that like, hey, remember, we're working on this again today. Will you please bring to my awareness, help me remember in the moment when I'm probably going to be triggered a lot today? Can you please help me remember the things that I'm learning? Because it's not enough just to learn it. We have to do it. And when we do it and we're practicing it, it can be messy. But Jesus's Grace is available for this part of our healing.
[01:04:43] Speaker A: You can find Jeni @ www.healinginchristslight.com.
[01:04:47] Speaker B: You can find Katy at gracefilledpathways.freshlearn.com. We're both on Instagram and Facebook too.
[01:04:59] Speaker A: Thanks for exploring Christ's light with us.
